Sounds About Right: Audiobooks to Help Us Understand the World

#27: Who’s Raising the Kids?: Big Tech, Big Business, and the Lives of Children with Susan Linn

October 24, 2022 Sounds About Right: Audiobooks to Help Us Understand the World Episode 27
Sounds About Right: Audiobooks to Help Us Understand the World
#27: Who’s Raising the Kids?: Big Tech, Big Business, and the Lives of Children with Susan Linn
Show Notes Transcript

As well as being an author, Susan Linn is a psychologist, award-winning ventriloquist and a world-renowned expert on creative play and the impact of media and commercial marketing on children.

Her latest book is Who’s Raising the Kids?: Big Tech, Big Business, and the Lives of Children.

Some of the topics we discussed includes: 

  • The oversized and unregulated role Big Tech plays in children's lives. 
  • The deregulation of children's television.
  • How these companies fulfil their objective of having children buy their toys by intentionally undermining  parents as gatekeepers
  • What are the dangers of the 'collectable toys' business model?
  • Being skeptical of the intent of corporations.
  •  What is branded learning?
  • What have governments done to try and regulate this?


 
 The Book and Audiobook:  Who’s Raising the Kids?: Big Tech, Big Business, and the Lives of Children is out now.

You can also  find out more about Susan on her website https://www.consumingkids.com
 


As of now, my podcast is biweekly and prior to an episode I’ll let you know what book/audiobook I’ll be listening to before the next show so we can delve into it together!

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ng_ (00:29.082)
First and foremost, Susan, thank you for coming on the podcast.

susan_linn (00:39.312)
Well, thank you for having me.

ng_ (00:42.318)
You're very welcome. So the first thing I wanted to say, Susan, is that obviously you're an author, psychologist, and a very talented ventriloquist. So your engagement with children and their wellbeing expands deeply on a professional, creative, and personal level, for which you've received many honours and awards for. What is oversized and underregulate, what is the oversized and underregulated role Big Tech plays in children's lives?

susan_linn (01:11.176)
Children are spending an enormous time.

with technology. I mean, not just screens, you know, a lot of the toys they play with are also smart toys or tech toys. And basically, I think what people have to remember is first of all, that the devices that we love so much are primarily designed to sell us and our kids stuff. That's, you know, that's basically what they were.

designed for and also that advertising and marketing to kids, which today mostly comes through big tech, it doesn't just market products, it markets values and behaviors. And the values that are...

susan_linn (02:09.484)
are so much a part of commercialized culture aren't good for kids. I mean, they're not good for families and they're really not good for the planet. I mean, for instance, the primary value is the belief that the things we buy will make us happy.

But what research tells us is that the things we buy may make us happy for a little while, but it's not any kind of sustained happiness. I mean, what makes us happy are relationships or experiences. But if you believe that the things you buy will make you happy,

And so what do you do? You buy a thing, but the thing doesn't make you happy. So then what do you do? Well, you believe that things will make you happy, so you buy another thing, a bigger thing, a better thing. That works great for corporations, but it doesn't work so well for kids or for their parents who keep shelling out money for these things. And in fact, what research also tells us

with materialistic values who believe that happiness lies in the next purchase are actually less happy than kids who are not so invested in materialism.

ng_ (03:42.759)
When was it that this tide began to change, would you say?

susan_linn (03:47.885)
the 1980s.

ng_ (03:50.877)
and

susan_linn (03:51.98)
It started a little bit before that, but basically in the 1980s what we had was the deregulation of children's television where it became okay to create a program for the sole purpose of selling toys, but it was also when the technology just began to develop at breakneck speed. So it was no longer just television.

You know, it was videos and then DVDs and video games and, you know, so on to where we are today with, you know, apps and smartphones and tablets and now what's approaching robots and the metaphors.

ng_ (04:42.118)
Even though there is a strong emphasis on children in the book, you also make reference to adults. If grown adults alone are struggling with abstaining from big tech, such as social media, big businesses and their brands, mobile phones, what chance is it do the children have?

susan_linn (05:04.412)
It's a real problem. I mean, the amount that adults use tech and the way that so many of us believe that it's important for children to use it, that's one of the ways it's marketed to adults is that children need to use tablets so they'll be prepared for the future. But that's actually completely ridiculous.

because the technology is going to change, and being able to swipe and tap and do what you do with the tablet is not gonna help kids get jobs. It's not gonna help them thrive in a tech-saturated culture. Really, they need the things that we can't get from corporations and that we can't get from screens, really.


ng_ (07:27.026)
Well, these big companies, they want kids to buy their toys and their main purpose is to make their shareholders' profits. However, part of their tactics, include actually working to undermine the parents as gatekeepers isn't it? How do they actually manage to do this?

susan_linn (08:02.921)
Yes.

Well, one thing that they do is to target kids directly with advertising and with advertising that is so incredibly irresistible. I mean, it used to be 30 second or 15 second commercials on television. But now we have influencers who are kids unboxing, doing unboxing videos.

which are just all about how wonderful this particular toy is. And these videos are very popular with kids, but they're also just basically very powerful advertising. And there's also advertising within apps, so in-app advertising, or if kids are using an app.

that's marketed as free you know they can only do so much with it and then they're being uh... told that they need to get the premium versions so the advertising is just incredibly sneaky and uh... manipulative and what they're doing really is uh... is convincing kids to nag their parents for stuff so that's one way that they come

between parents and children, and that's unknown marketing technique. I mean, it's acknowledged in marketing literature that that's a way of getting parents to buy things is to go through the kids. It's called the nag factor or pester power, which sounds more refined, but actually it's the same thing.

ng_ (09:58.811)
and

I think there was a part in the book where you mentioned how some of these companies will advertise an app as educational, but once again, there's little educational value and instead the kids are being bombarded with paying more to open another aspect of the app that will allow them to use it a lot more efficiently or et cetera, or even when you look at games such as Fortnite as well. I think it's free to download for children.

but what separates them from other kids I guess is the extra skins and the dances that you can buy as well isn't it?

susan_linn (10:40.052)
Yes, I don't think that Fortnite advertises itself as educational, but it is supposed to be free. But what happens is that they have these new versions that they put out every couple of months.

skins, like you said, skins, you know, that they can buy to decorate their avatars and, and what happens in these sandbox games, which is where you're not just playing by yourself, but you're playing with other people and you can see the avatars of the other people. So you can see which kids have the money to buy more stuff. And so it, it kind of foments.

uh... envy you know and so that that's the kind of peer pressure that maybe used to take place you know in school or on the playground or you know on uh... on the street i mean but now it's built into these games they're using children's vulnerabilities in order to sell them stuff

ng_ (12:00.85)
Absolutely. Now each time in the book when you mentioned collectible toys, it struck a serious chord with me because I used to religiously collect Pokemon cards as a child. And would you mind touching on the dangers of those type of toys? Collectible toys.

susan_linn (12:11.169)
Sure.

susan_linn (12:18.256)
Yeah, and I know lots of people who grew up with Pokemon or kids today who love Pokemon and who do draw them or do fun things with them. It's not Pokemon itself that's the problem, it's the business model. And the business model, like one way...

that toys are sold to kids today, it is as part of a set. And it's like a never ending set because they're always introducing new ones. And so you're always being tempted to get something new, to get, you know, to complete the set, but then you never complete the set. And it kind of goes on and on like that. And Pokemon's...

tagline which I think is gotta get them all, right? Gotta catch them all, that's right. It's brilliant, you know, it's also diabolical because that's the message. You gotta catch them all, you gotta, you gotta, you know, they might as well be saying you've gotta buy them all. And, and, and so, and Pokemon is just one toy that is being sold, you know, as sets. Another one.

ng_ (13:18.294)
Gotta catch them all.

ng_ (13:25.623)
Yeah.

susan_linn (13:44.492)
that I write about in the book are LOL dolls which are they're so terrible for the environment it's just unbelievable I mean basically these LOL dolls which are marketed as sets by the way they come with just layer after layer after layer of plastic and plastic toys and you know this is a

at a time when the oceans you know are being destroyed by plastic when we're so uh... you know concerned about the environment and yet kids are being you know sold constantly these toys that uh... and again you never finish even if you complete a set of lol dolls there's another set that you that you can get and uh...

One poignant story that a mom told in the book was about, this is a person who is very interested in social justice. And her kids know that. And so her child, who tried all sorts of ways of getting the mom to buy LOL DOS,

you know mom the lol dolls are made by the Chinese and it's not fair to the Chinese that we don't buy these lol dolls which is you know brilliant um that's one very smart child but you know I mean kids are I mean it's understandable that they lobby for what they want or they try to get what they want.

But what's really creepy and terrible is to have these multinational corporations, these big tech companies doing everything they can to persuade kids to nag their parents.

ng_ (15:58.734)
To the extent that the advice of telling the parent just say no is pretty undermining isn't it? I think the comparison you put in the book was it's almost as if telling an alcoholic to stop drinking isn't it? Whilst being, yeah.

susan_linn (16:12.912)
Oh yeah, or I think, yeah, or I might have said that telling parents just to say no is effective as effective as telling a drug addict just to say no. You know, I mean, it's more complicated than that. I mean, parents are, you know, they, we want our children to be happy. We do. We love them. We want them to be happy. And...

ng_ (16:23.42)
Mmhmm, that's the one, yeah.

susan_linn (16:40.048)
and encouraging kids to nag or encouraging kids you know to believe that the only way they can be happy is with all this branded stuff is just it's cruel really

ng_ (16:53.383)
Absolutely.

susan_linn (16:54.268)
and the tech companies say of course that it's just up to parents you know right that basically that they have no responsibility it's up to the parents and uh... parents you know certainly have an important role to play but it's just ridiculous to think that you know one family can combat these zillion dollar industries working day and night

you know, to come between parents and children.

ng_ (17:25.342)
Absolutely, especially when these billion dollar industries also have other families and people around that parent that are endorsing their products as well. It's very difficult for that family to maintain that, I suppose, maintain what they're trying to do in abstaining, isn't it?

susan_linn (17:45.924)
Yes, and I think just as kids are marketed, that they need, forgive me for using the example, but they need Pokemon in order to be happy. Parents also are being sold that, even to babies, that you need to get babies Elmo products.

As if babies are born loving Elmo or SpongeBob SquarePants or Spider-Man. I mean, they're not. We train them to need those products. They're not born that way.

ng_ (18:28.97)
Speaking of branded products

I don't really look at toys in this way until I actually listen to your audiobook. And it's just the idea of the passive and the active toys, as well as the toys that make noise and the toys that are there for a child to be creative in terms of its usage of it. Would you mind elaborating on the difference between the two, Susan?

susan_linn (18:55.596)
Sure, I mean the new toys, the chip-enabled toys that chirp and beep and do back flips and move and talk on their own, those are really good for advertising. You know, because you take 15 seconds of a clip of a toy doing all sorts of things that looks like fun. But really, those toys have no...

value to children really and because all the kids are doing is pushing a button a button and eventually that just gets boring so really the best toys and the toys that are the most useful to kids and the toys that kids will play with longer are toys that are now thought of as old-fashioned and retro they're toys that just lie there

until somebody picks them up and transforms them or you know gives them uses and the saying that i like is you know a good toy is ninety percent child and only ten percent toy because if a toy does everything by itself i mean the toy may be having fun but what what's happening to the child who is just incredibly passive

ng_ (20:10.221)
Hmm.

susan_linn (20:20.104)
and what's ironic is that these toys and also screen-based you know uh... activities for kids they're marketed as interactive but they're not necessarily interactive they're more reactive because the child is reacting to what the toy is doing the child is not initiating

and is not initiating and creating and following through. And those skills, initiation, creativity, the capacity to follow through on something, those are incredibly important skills for kids to develop.

ng_ (21:10.818)
Thank you, Susan. Another thing I wanted to ask you is, must we be skeptical of products and apps and devices that use artificial intelligence and algorithms?

susan_linn (21:23.94)
I think that we have to be skeptical of corporations and the intent of corporations. That it's certainly possible. I'm not, I mean I've been accused of being tech phobic. I'm not tech phobic. You know, I tweet and post and you know, do all that. And I wrote my book. You know, on.

a laptop and uh... and i've worked in television you know in fact i think you know there is a lot of potential with technology but the business model it's toxic the business model which is to capture our attention and our children's attention and keep it at any cost and without regard to whether what's happening is good for kids and i think what we have to

be concerned about and why we have to remember that this is not just a family problem it's a societal problem and we need to deal with it as a society is that the technology is only getting more powerful and more seductive and more engaging I mean you know Mark Zuckerberg is and others are pushing the metaverse

And now I've seen articles written by respected educators talking about the educational potential of the metaverse. But what they never mentioned is who owns the metaverse, what kind of marketing is going to be going on in the metaverse. And that's naive.

or willfully naive, I don't know which it is. And it's also destructive. Yes, all of that technology can be really beneficial, but we need to think about who owns it and how they make their money.

ng_ (23:37.598)
think calling you a technophobe is a bit of a stretch personally as well you know like even when I was listening to the audiobook I think just when it comes to technology it's all about optimization isn't it like using it using it so it serves us rather than the other way around and I feel as though at the moment it's definitely the other way around especially because these companies are powerful they're a lot of their business models is based on how long they can keep your child engaged for on

susan_linn (23:40.992)
Hehehehe

susan_linn (23:54.336)
Yes.

ng_ (24:06.299)
whichever toy or app is or etc. Isn't it?

susan_linn (24:10.408)
Yes, as I've said, I mean the business model is toxic. It's toxic for adults, it's especially toxic for children. And what it does is, I mean at a minimum, it keeps kids away from things that we know are beneficial to them. Reading, being read to.

you know there's a lot of research of how important it is to read to young children actively exploring the world with all of their senses you know being in relationship to other people i mean those nature we know i mean there's we know we know what's good for kids and it's not being in front of a screen all day and i think that

One thing that the lockdowns did is that it made everybody more aware of why that's a problem, you know, not just for kids but for adults as well. So, yeah, it's not that it's not, you know, beneficial and the one benefit I think that we found during the pandemic is video chatting with

you know for kids to be able to video chat with the adults who love them who are far away that's beneficial to kids

ng_ (25:45.046)
Absolutely. Another thing I wanted to ask you actually, Susan, is well, children, they're the future generation and you want them to be equipped with the full spectrum of knowledge to make good decisions that's within their best interests as well as their children's best interests as well. Would you mind saying, Susan, what branded learning is?

susan_linn (26:07.604)
So branded learning is, well, it's a couple of things. I mean, and one of them is when the materials in a school are designed by corporations and marketed by corporations. And that's a problem because the main purpose of most corporations is to generate profit.

And so the reason that they're in schools is either to inculcate lifetime brand loyalty. I mean, when Apple gives out iPads to kindergartners, it's not because iPads are beneficial necessarily to kindergartners, but they're beneficial to Apple because, you know, the whole phenomenon of lifetime brand loyalty.

which is like the brass ring, or the gold ring, or whatever it's called, for corporations. I mean, a brand loyal customer, lifetime brand loyalty is worth a lot, financially, to a corporation. So that's one thing. And the other is to make sure that what kids are learning in schools doesn't undermine the goal of corporations.

and that's why oil companies you know have all of these you know materials in schools that um... that talk about the environment or talk about fossil fuels but they don't talk about the role that fossil fuels are playing in undermining and harming the environment

I mean so if you go through and I did a lot of corporate sponsored teaching materials or branded teaching materials, it's not even so much what they say is what they don't say, what gets left out. And that's a problem. And you know the schools are struggling financially, teachers are struggling to get you know good quality materials.

susan_linn (28:28.176)
and these materials you know come in they bypass school boards they come directly to the teachers and they're pretty or they're glossy they're well you know they look good the kids might even like them but the quality of what they're learning uh... you know is uh... helpful for corporations but it undermines

children's learning including their capacity for critical thinking.

ng_ (29:01.174)
Absolutely. A quote that I got from your book actually is, if we care enough about our children, we'll limit the amount of advertising they're exposed to. So Susan, what is it that the US government has done to try and regulate all these practices from big tech and big companies? And in your opinion, has it been effective?

susan_linn (29:21.524)
well so far they haven't done much so the answer to the last part of your question is no it's not effective because they haven't done much but interestingly you know when you know there's a lot of terrible stuff going on in the world right now but this is the first time where it's looked even a little hopeful that might change

in the senate that got out of committee that actually have bipartisan support that at that would limit the ways that big-tech companies can target children uh... and so as an activist i mean i've been doing this work for over twenty years uh... that's a big accomplishment just to even have them in congress

whether they'll pass or not, whether they'll even make it to the senate floor I don't know but the fact that they're there is a big deal I think that that's hopeful california actually passed uh... the california legislature actually passed uh... legislation that does limit the ways that corporate that uh... big tech can target kids

and you know and britain passed uh... a design code as law that companies have to take the well-being of children into consideration when they design websites so i think that uh... the stranglehold that big tech has had you know they've got huge amounts of money and tons and tons of power and lobbyists

I, you know, it might be loosening. I'm more hopeful than I ever have been that this could change. And, you know, it's really essential that it does. I mean, they need to be regulated the way, like utilities are regulated.

ng_ (31:28.558)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. So lastly, Susan, imagine being a parent who takes on the advice in the book and is really all about, let's say fighting the good fight. But everyone around their child has these passive toys or plays Fortnite or has phones with all these apps as well. What is it that parent can do and how hard would you say will it be for them to maintain the standards as you let's say as you mentioned?

susan_linn (32:00.096)
So one thing I think it's important to sort of preface what I'm gonna say is, I didn't write the book to make parents feel guilty. You know, I mean, they shouldn't feel guilty that they're not coping purposely with, you know, this, you know, incredible, big tech-enabled, troubling phenomenon. I mean, it's hard to be a parent today. So one thing is,

It's easier to start when kids are little, even babies, to start from the beginning, because it's easier to give things than to take it away. It's harder, you know, if your kids have been immersed in tech and you decide to cut it back, that's hard. It's doable, but it's hard. And it's easier if you can find other families who share your values.

It's hard to do this alone. But one thing that I think that you can talk to your children about, if you are the only one, the only family that is setting some limits on these things, is that families are different and the same, and they have different values.

And yes, your friends' family do this. We do things differently in this family, and this is why. And, you know, I think you need to be prepared that your child's going to be unhappy about that. And I think it's, or may be unhappy, and I think it's important to validate those feelings. I know you don't like it. I know, you know, it's hard, or harder for you, or it feels hard for you, but these are our values.

And really for parents, the most important thing that we pass down to our children are our values.

ng_ (33:57.25)
Brilliant. Thank you, Susan.

susan_linn (33:59.456)
Thank you.