Sounds About Right: Audiobooks to Help Us Understand the World

#20: It's a Continent: Unravelling Africa's History One Country at a Time with Astrid Madimba and Chinny Ukata

August 22, 2022 Sounds About Right: Audiobooks to Help Us Understand the World Episode 20
Sounds About Right: Audiobooks to Help Us Understand the World
#20: It's a Continent: Unravelling Africa's History One Country at a Time with Astrid Madimba and Chinny Ukata
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, I sat down with Astrid and Chinny, they are the authors of the book It's a Continent: Unravelling Africa's History One Country at a Time 

Some of topics in the episode we discussed includes:

  • What influenced their decisions regarding the topics they wanted to write about for each country
  • Whether their views on countries such as the UK, France and Belgium has changed since starting their podcast as well as writing the book
  • The impact the Berlin Conference in 1884 had on the African Continent with its disregard of existing ethnic groups.
  • Since the independence of most of the countries in the continent following World War II, can any of them truly say they are independent?


The Book and Audiobook:  It's a Continent: Unravelling Africa's History One Country at a Time is out now.

For more details such as a link their website, to buy the book and to listen to their podcast:  https://linktr.ee/itsacontinent 
Its a Continent Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/itsacontinentpod

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ng (00:37.591)
So the first thing I wanted to actually mention is, so in the title of the book, it's by no means misleading. So you literally talk about all the countries in Africa, even the islands off the coast of Africa.

that some people forget to mention. So it will be interesting to know what influence your decisions regarding the topics that you wanted to write about on each country. For instance, with Egypt, you didn't focus on the pyramids. With South Africa, you didn't focus on apartheid. So how did that go about?

astrid (01:18.911)
I think it really stems from our podcast because we wanted to provide, share stories and historical moments that people had never heard of before and haven't been flagged in schools. And so, yeah, especially with Egypt.

chinny (01:33.414)
We did not want pyramids, that was a main, a pre-resequit for that particular chapter.

astrid (01:38.739)

So it was interesting trying to find, okay, what's another way in which we can share some more history and insight into Egypt from a different perspective. And for that chapter, we cover Doria Shafik, sorry, who was a feminist at the time. And so, African feminists, Egyptian African feminists, who knew? So yeah, so for us, we made a conscious decision throughout the book really to cover both kind of colonization times, which obviously there's a lot of history and stuff documented.

around that time, but also focused on pre-colonialism, as well as also amplifying women's voices as well. So we try and fit in quite a bit in all 54 countries, but yeah, I think we managed it. I don't know.

chinny (02:19.003)
Yes.

chinny (02:23.718)
Yeah, it was around picking something that we felt represented the country's history or something that hasn't been covered before, something that's little known about particular countries. So in the example you gave with South Africa, we didn't want to cover Nelson Mandela because everyone knows about Nelson Mandela. So we then look at Steve Bicco and his life and his contribution to what he did within South Africa. So yeah, it was picking up on little known stories as well as amplifying, again, as Astrid said, the voices of those that often get marginalized within history.

ng (02:53.651)
brilliant. I think when I was listening to the audiobook actually, the chapter on Steve Bukowick cut me deep, you know. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I heard about him but didn't know much about him to be honest. And funnily enough, I think one of you guys mentioned that you did the history and GCC, whatever did them, right? Yeah, I did it. I did it. I know, right?

chinny (03:01.383)
Yeah.

astrid (03:02.481)
Yeah.

chinny (03:07.047)
Mmm.

astrid (03:13.683)
Yeah. Cheney's out here giving out all of us.

chinny (03:15.659)
Yeah, I'm now like my GCSE qualification for more than 10 years ago. Still writing, still writing on that A star.

astrid (03:20.203)
Er enghraifft, dim ymddygiadau, Jenny? Nid oeddwn i wedi gweld hynny.

ng (03:25.395)
Still riding on it, exactly. I did it as well though, I did history and there was no mention of him, it was just, you know, apartheid and the Nelsa Mandela perspective as opposed to his. I wonder why that was the case, you know, but that's a story for another day. So yeah, that chapter was, yeah, if there was a feeling you wanted the person to feel whilst reading or listening to it, I think you achieved it, I'm not gonna lie.

chinny (03:33.429)
Mmm.

chinny (03:40.672)
Mmm.

ng (03:53.807)
But yeah, I wanted to ask as well, what inspires both of you in terms of putting the audio book as well as the book and the podcast, what inspired you to begin to do that in the first place?

astrid (04:10.015)
I think we both felt a gap in our understanding of a kind of where we're both from. So I'm Congolese and Chinese Nigerian and we just wanted to learn more. You know, we're both pretty strong. Obviously, I don't have a qualification to prove it pretty strong without British history. But we wanted to just learn more. We were like, actually, we don't know as much as we.

should and actually being able to have conversations about African history and be able to deliver dates and names with as much conviction as I can do with British history. So yeah, it really started from us wanting to learn more and we thought, you know what, I'm sure there's probably a couple of people out there who'd want to learn just as much as we do. And it's been really nice to see it resonate with so many people. Honestly, it's incredible to see.

chinny (05:00.284)
Yeah.

Yeah and also just even from a pan-african perspective like I don't know much about Congolese history, Ghanaian history, Zambian history and it's just like wow we don't even as Africans we don't even know much about other countries so it's really also about bringing that different perspective together because unfortunately because of the sort of relic of colonisation is that even within the countries they are still learning a bit of a whitewashed curriculum so yeah it was really about bringing those stories to life yeah.

ng (05:15.391)
Mmm.

ng (05:28.12)
Absolutely.

Yeah, so Chinny, you mentioned that education is a seed which has led to the biases which we experience today. And I kind of wanted to know how was your experience regarding education and history, as well as you Astrid as well after.

chinny (05:47.614)
Yeah, so I just found that history, especially in primary school, maybe to an extent secondary school, still to this day, it's like, okay, I'd have to dress up in like Tudor clothes or Victorian clothes. I'd have to then go to like one hall. And I was there thinking, what's going on? Like this, this isn't really like, yes, there were black people in those times, but it wasn't truly representative of the actual, you know, of my history or what my ancestors were doing at the time.

And unfortunately also just some of the stories that I hear, so for example the Biafran War, I was only hearing that from my family and no one else. But then I think as I realised that actually Britain had a lot of involvement within this conflict. So much so that there were protests on the street in London. And you know, Blue Peter was out here raising awareness about it. So the fact that Britain was so involved, and the people were involved too,

ng (06:28.307)
Absolutely.

chinny (06:40.25)
but it just doesn't even get a footnote. It just kind of is quite telling because I think I then when I discovered that I was like what else you know what else have you got to hide?

ng (06:48.819)
Absolutely.

chinny (06:49.354)
The problem with education being a seed is that if people are taught a certain view on history that's not accurate, then that then leads and forms biases and untrue perceptions about a whole range of different people. So then people now think that Africa is devoid of history because they were just never taught anything about the continent.

astrid (07:11.443)
Yeah, I fully agree around if it's not actually embedded within the education system, because I do think, you know, our parents do a fantastic job and you kind of put your kids in the education system to ensure that they're, you know, ready for life and everything, but actually, you know, it does, it's a particular moment in time, it only gives a certain insight into the world and you're then left to kind of, you know, if that gap is there, you're never gonna fill it. You really have to do.

sounds crazy, do the work, but you really, you really do have to do the work yourself because it isn't delivered within education. And so I think it's just, yeah, super important for it to cover. And we had like a really interesting discussion a couple of weeks ago with a teacher who'd reached out to us. He was really identifying, it was driven actually by the students around how they were pushing them to really decolonize their curriculum. And so it's really nice to see that there are, you know, little snippets of this happening. Yeah, yeah.

chinny (07:41.977)
Ehh...

chinny (08:07.523)
smooth changes.

ng (08:09.402)
Yeah.

astrid (08:10.007)
really happening and being delivered and trying to find appropriate ways and how to kind of share that information with students because it honestly surprised me massively to see some of the misconceptions that these children's that these kids held like so it's really important that we establish kind of African history and embed that into the curriculum as early as possible.

chinny (08:32.652)
Uh-huh.

ng (08:34.295)
Absolutely, like I remember when I was in school, I don't know whether you guys experienced this as well, but I think it was in year seven and What happened is we had to form a queue outside of the classroom, which was unusual already for our history class and then we were told to walk in and like we had a specific seating plan.

And what we realized once we all sat down was that the black kids were at the back and the white kids at the front. And the teacher done it as an example to show us how things was in America essentially, you know. And it was just like, oh, OK, then so it's either slavery or Martin Luther King or just, you know, everything's more or less American-centred history when...

chinny (09:15.45)
Yeah

ng (09:16.631)
if we're talking about history, other than Henry the Apes, marital affairs, Britain has a lot of things to talk about when it comes to Africa, you know? So, no, absolutely. That's what they're not telling us, exactly. You know? So what I wanted to ask as well is your views on countries such as the UK, France, Belgium, Germany.

astrid (09:23.955)
Mm hmm. Yep.

chinny (09:25.553)
And that's what they're not telling us.

astrid (09:27.083)
Merci!

Thank you.

ng (09:43.267)
you know, Russia, which some people didn't know about as well. Has that changed whilst you were doing the podcast and whilst you were writing the book as well?

astrid (09:55.807)
We knew that things would be, you know, it's not all kushy and stuff, but honestly, sometimes you're like, wow, for real people aren't fully aware of this. And we're all out here just being like, you know, this Saviourism kind of type complex when you're like, how are you, how is this justifiable? And I think for me also, people seeing the link between why a lot of African nations find themselves in a situation they're in.

ng (10:04.028)
Yeah.

astrid (10:24.387)
is as and also the successes of Western nations is a result of colonisation. And so, yeah, this whole experience really, honestly, I thought my eyes were open, but it definitely, yeah, opens them up even more. Yeah.

chinny (10:36.65)
open them even wider. That's the thing because the the credit false credit is given to these countries for you know their advancement and their development thinking that it was the intellect or you know the creativity or of the British, the French, the Germans but actually it was the exploitation of an entire continent.

ng (10:43.367)
Hmm.

chinny (10:56.43)
roedd e'n gweithio yn y Llywodraeth, fel y dylwn ni'n ei ddweud. Ond, yn ffwrdd, mae'n ddaeth ddaeth ddaeth ddaeth ddaeth, yn y ffordd, yw gwrthoglwm cyfrannol i'r cyfrannolion ymlaen.

ng (11:08.303)
Absolutely and when you think of an occasion such as the Berlin Conference, how much of an impact, this might sound like a ridiculous question because we kind of know already, but how much of an impact would you say that had in terms of the fate of African countries you know when we talk about the disregard of ethnic groups and creating these countries out of...

chinny (11:17.515)
Yeah.

ng (11:32.591)
If anything essentially like you have this place you have that place essentially is what was done by the European countries How much of an impact would you say that had?

chinny (11:44.722)
It kind of has led, yeah, it's the destabilisation aspects really, because sometimes it's very easy to say why haven't these countries just come together? But actually it's a bit like if someone decided to draw a ring around France, Spain, Portugal and said, this is our country now, you guys are now going to speak a different language.

astrid (11:45.099)
Just stop.

chinny (12:05.154)
Like when we put it within a European context, people are then like, oh, actually, yeah, that's weird. But actually the same concept was applied in the continent. You had people that there was no such thing as Nigeria, that is social construct. And then we wonder why there's so many separatist movements in Nigeria right now. People just are not like, you know, historically, they were different ethnic groups with their own ethnic states based within those groups. So

the kind of forcibly putting these people together and then get them to speak a new language, it just lends itself to disruption and destabilisation. And then someone has to then convince the people that, oh, no, OK, guys, now you're Zambian and they're thinking, what's Zambian? You know, so it's just it gives I think one of the reasons we kind of have this.

ongoing project and the book is really around how did the continent get to its current position. It didn't just wake up in this state. All of these events have led to the continent as we see it today.

ng (12:57.294)
Hmm.

ng (13:00.487)
Yep.

astrid (13:05.811)
Yeah, that conference, honestly, to think that moment in time has shaped how we identify ourselves so much more. And also kind of in terms of, you know, when nations started to become independent, you then, as you said, you know, Nigeria is a social construct. So then you have to now form an identity, right? You've been living in this way. You can't then revert, you know, maybe a spot, but like...

chinny (13:07.785)
Mm-hmm.

ng (13:12.295)
To this day. Yeah.

chinny (13:13.931)
So much. Yes. Mm.

astrid (13:35.263)
Does it make sense to revert back? What does that even look like anymore? And I just feel like there's a lack of recognition, especially in kind of the history we're told, lack of, of actually what the impact of doing that is. You've got millions of people that you're now gonna have to bring together to come and feel like a nation. How do you do that when you've never had the longevity of history and time to really develop your story? And it's only, okay, now it's...

1960 or whatever that a particular nation gets independence, you're a country, go off and do, like it's just, it's so, like it just makes no sense, like honestly doing this, the book, the podcast and the audiobook just makes you realise and appreciate it's actually understandable why a lot of these countries find themselves in this kind of state because I would honestly have no idea how to approach it, do you know? Like it is, yeah, there is no blueprint.

chinny (14:09.463)
Mm-hmm.

ng (14:26.952)
Hmm.

chinny (14:29.975)
Hehehehe

ng (14:31.371)
And to the countries that have had leaders following independence that have tried to approach it in a very self-serving, well, I don't know if the right word is self-serving, but in a way that's not trying to be a puppet on the colonial power. They've been ousted or they've been assassinated. So.

chinny (14:54.878)
Mm.

ng (14:58.019)
I suppose that brings a question whether many of these countries that have had independence during that period of time can truly say they are free today.

chinny (15:10.37)
Well that's a thing because neocolonialism has its grip now.

ng (15:10.599)
Hmm

chinny (15:14.378)
And anyone that the problem with, you know, for example, Thomas Sankara and his ideas, his visions, that he was killed for his beliefs, you know, Patrice Lumumba and many other African leaders within the continent. So then you think, well, maybe you have to have a puppet because otherwise you can, you know, you will be removed or ousted by the powers that be, which is quite a scary thought. But we've seen it happen just not just in Africa, but within other places in the world as well.

ng (15:31.92)
Hmm

chinny (15:43.652)
countries as well. But yeah, it's just a new form of colonisation because yes, they're independent but they're not really because you still have people controlling currency, who is president and even backing leaders that are actually destroying their country.

ng (15:47.695)
Hmm.

ng (15:53.56)
Mm-hmm.

astrid (16:02.283)
And I do also think that lack of establishing a strong sense of identity and having the kind of time to establish that really has also lent itself to greed. Because if you don't identify and see someone as kind of part of your community, you know, you're not, you don't feel the need to help. And I do think has potentially kind of influenced a lot of the leads that we have seen come through just show no consideration for their citizens and really just

chinny (16:13.32)
Eh heh

ng (16:25.287)
Hmm.

astrid (16:31.527)
obliterate and take as much as they can from their countries.

ng (16:33.039)
Absolutely and is it fair for me to say that within the book there are some common themes so for one being the highlighted stories of women that did do great things or women that were powerful because as you correctly say it's you know it's a continent you know Africa's not a country so you know many people believe it's just men are ahead of the households and etc so

uh stories are more or less history is more or less reserved to telling a story of men whereas you know you talk about women in Cote d'Ivoire or Madame Joko etc so um that's that's a common theme in the book as well as um highlighting post-independence how some leaders have come into power and have led uh despot or cleprotic uh cleprocratic um

fake democracy for and been in power for about 30 years and um and also just you know how um I'd probably say another theme in the book that I noticed as well was um just the telling of the stories of alternative stories of countries as opposed to ones that people would usually expect to hear is that fair to say as well?

chinny (17:34.134)
Yeah. Yeah.

astrid (17:56.883)
Yeah, definitely. We really made a conscious effort to try and, because we describe the book as very much a starting point for people to then go out and do more research and learn more about kind of the history of different African nations. And so we really tried to pick moments in time and histories of specific countries that we felt would really engage the reader and actually be like, you know what? I had no idea about this. Let me go and do some digging. Because if the work hasn't been established, you know,

curriculum perspective, you really then have to do the work now and it's just how do we support someone and identify, okay, I've no idea where do we begin, let's get this book as a starting point and then let me go out there and read more, discover more and really engage with even more literature.

ng (18:34.6)
Hmm.

ng (18:43.431)
What would you say was the most difficult country to write about?

chinny (18:53.046)
There were quite a few. I would say... For me, I think Cabo Verde or Cape Verde as they also know was quite a tough one because the kind of theme is that...

ng (18:57.776)
Mmm.

chinny (19:05.686)
the government at the time went to great lengths to erase African history, which meant that the process was even harder to then find history about the island, seeing as there was a concerted effort to remove the history and really whitewash it. So that was quite difficult just to find information on it. Quite often it would be the case where you see, okay, there was a movement, Funana music, which was like resistance music, and I thought, oh, this would be a great chapter

ng (19:33.761)
Hmm

chinny (19:36.36)
against, you know, colonisation but there was just nothing. It was like chasing like cold leads. But yeah, in the end there was a chapter on like that whole issue around the whitewashing of their history but yeah, it was quite difficult to actually source the material in the first place.

ng (19:40.289)
Ha ha.

astrid (19:57.831)
I definitely say pre-colonials because we really tried to make sure there was a good balance and explore those moments and stuff but that was definitely a challenge in terms of just being able to find the information and pull that together.

chinny (20:01.239)
Yes.

ng (20:13.975)
Yeah, I could imagine with Cabo Verde, that must have been very, very difficult. Like, I think it was, did you guys mention whether, was the island actually inhabited before the Portuguese got there or? Yeah.

chinny (20:21.39)
Yeah.

chinny (20:34.554)
No, it wasn't. And it was given its name like Cabo Verde around like because it was green. And you know, it was beautiful. But actually, the exploitation of the land, because the Portuguese wanted to use it to basically just generate products that and crop that wasn't actually conducive to the environment, meant there were a lot of droughts, which meant that the island then lost its green for which it was named after in the first place. So yeah, it's just another example of

ng (20:56.677)
Mm-hmm.

chinny (21:05.089)
as a result of colonization, capitalism, etc.

ng (21:06.691)
Absolutely. I did like how balanced the book was because from an African's perspective, because there is a lack of history in general, what is to be told? You wouldn't want it to bring the whole place down completely because there's barely anything there, you know what I mean? However, it's important to be objective and it's important to tell things how it is.

chinny (21:31.656)
Yeah.

ng (21:36.755)
country which I've found very difficult hearing about was Gabon and you know just their role in terms of how they essentially got by you know selling slaves essentially right and I did appreciate that being in a book as well because it brings a balance and it lets one know just how different things were across the continent. How would you say for yourselves

chinny (21:58.763)
Mm.

ng (22:04.259)
How would you say for yourselves, since writing the book and since starting the podcast, your outlook has been on Africa as well as on Europe as well?

chinny (22:19.918)
I think it's important to hold.

African, some African leaders for example, accountable for some of the damage that has been done. We didn't want to paint a picture of everything is, you know, is all celebration, this is great because if we look at it, it's actually not. It's a bit like, you know, when people go to Ghana or Lagos on holiday in December and they think that everything's great but actually the reality is that there are a lot of people that are living under really difficult conditions. So yeah, we wanted to highlight that actually there is a side

ng (22:25.523)
Mm.

chinny (22:53.022)
the...

within African history, even just Africa in the present day, that does need to be addressed as well. But we also are providing context as to why that's the case. So there is context as to why there seems to be a consistent way that leaders become despots, for example, from people that liberated their countries, there is some kind of pipeline to despotism and dictatorship. So we explain that, but we also do have to hold those people accountable too, because it's not enough to just say,

ng (23:01.116)
Hmm.

chinny (23:24.592)
ymddangosodd a yna bydd angen i'w ddechrau.

astrid (23:29.16)
And I think that context is really important. And I think what I like is, you know, we show that Africa's kind of nation's history is very much tied to the West in terms of just where we are at the moment. I think sometimes it is kept quite separate, but actually, you know, the reasons why.

some African nations find themselves in the state that they're in today is a result of what happened. So it's really important to provide that context as Chinni said, just to bring about that balance.

ng (23:56.651)
Astrid, you being from the DRC, I read that the wars that's going on there is one of the most under-reported wars that's happening in the world. And I suppose it's mainly because of its natural resources. And I wanted to ask you how detrimental was it, the assassination of Patrice Lumumba to the country? Not to say that...

astrid (24:09.203)
Mm-hmm.

ng (24:26.243)
any one person is a monolith and you know, just because one person passes away, a country is done for. But in terms of just how much of a hand Belgium had in the affairs of the country then and how much it probably has to this day.

astrid (24:45.131)
I think it had such a massive impact. We had a lot of like, you know, not just in the DRC, you had a lot of these kind of post-independence leaders who'd really helped to kind of say, yes, we're ready, we wanna approach things differently, we really wanna take our countries forward, but then all of a sudden, you know, all of a sudden, they were then assassinated. And I think a lot of these Western countries had a sense of they just couldn't let go.

And I think we emphasise in the book, from a place like France, Belgium, just couldn't let go and they didn't wanna, there was independence, but it was more semblance of independence. And so they still had these puppets in order to then maintain that. And talking of Patrice Lumumba, it's just only recently that his remains, I think just his tooth was returned. And you just think like, why is someone kept that for this long? And just how...

chinny (25:14.85)
Mm.

chinny (25:36.403)
Yes.

astrid (25:44.555)
he was murdered it's just you just think how was that like to have had that much hatred and wanted to maintain control of a nation so much so that you would do that to someone is just yeah it's ridiculous to see and I do think potentially those assassinations put people like you're not if you see that you can see it's a high risk role like how are you even going to be like yes I'm going to spearhead it it I don't want to say makes it understandable but

astrid (26:13.147)
you kind of see, okay, potentially some people thought, do you know what, if in doubt, join them. Cause if you're trying to fight them off, they're always gonna have another puppet through. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, no, it's a challenge. And it would be interesting to see, to have seen how African nations who had the likes of Patrice Lumumba would have actually fared now, would it have been a different story? But I still think beat them. Yeah.

chinny (26:23.961)
Mm.

chinny (26:36.558)
Mmm.

astrid (26:40.083)
there's still an opportunity, it's not lost, it's about how do African nations really make the right decisions for them moving forward in order to really rebuild and kind of have a strong sense of true independence.

ng (26:54.179)
I think it takes, not as if I know anything, but it takes a strong level of selflessness because many of them once they get into power they have more kinship to their ethnic groups or enriching themselves and then, you know, robbing their country blind and then fleeing or staying in power for as long as they can and then having someone else within their family who are going to power as well, which, you know, having a one-party rule and...

astrid (27:15.843)
Yep.

chinny (27:16.014)
That's it.

ng (27:22.839)
having complete control over journalists or universities or etc. Unfortunately. One thing I did want to mention is that you kind of managed to regulate the shade levels in the the book in comparison to the podcasts. Whose idea was that? Because...

chinny (27:48.046)
That's for legal reasons.

astrid (27:48.248)
Yeah. Yeah.

astrid (27:53.907)
We still, you know, we still want to be out and about. We want to be spending our time in court. So.

chinny (27:55.318)
HEEEH

chinny (27:59.354)
Yeah!

ng (27:59.567)
Nah, that was a good job. You done well with that one. You done very well with that one. And, um, mhm.

astrid (28:03.027)
Oh

astrid (28:08.399)
I think what you're making about these leaders, something we found interesting is that like, a lot of them when they have health care issues, they never go to the hospital in the nation that they're responsible for. Why are you flying to Switzerland? Why? Yeah, and you're like...

chinny (28:15.155)
Yeah, they will go. Yeah.

ng (28:18.415)
Buhari went to UK, did he not? Buhari went to London now, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

chinny (28:19.56)
never

chinny (28:24.09)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all the time.

Yeah, yeah.

astrid (28:28.203)
Can you not, wait, like, more convenient, but hey, anyways.

ng (28:30.599)
Yeah, that's true. It's true. Or even buying houses in different places. There's just so many things, do you know what I mean? Like, even, who was it? Jamerul Abacha, he had 600 million pounds in a Swiss account. For what? For who? Why? You know? You know?